Originally by: Destrim

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Back again from last night.

My concern, as stated before, is not with the steep prices, but with the fairly weak rewards.

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Originally by: TZeer

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Like the new changes, just hope CCP doesn`t backs out and give in to the cry babies

Anyway:

- Alliances are not supposed to have every single system withing 10 jumps of their outpost cynojammed. Without having to pay for it.

- Jump bridges, also a huge tactical tool. And all of you are whining and moaning about you need it for logistics. Well after this you dont need to keep 150 systems with POS fuel and what not.

Today I did a 70 jump trip from empire and into 0.0... What did I see? Alot of empty space with no people in, but sov was up. Why?

Example: Open up map and have a look at Impass. How many people in thoose systems? How many systems are not in use? Also, Feythabolis, Paragon Soul, Tenerifis it`s all wasteland. Most of the systems are only in use by 1 person. And quite a few of the systems are not even used.

Example: Feythabolis consists of 89 systems, when I did a count now I found 92 people in thoose systems. Thats 1,03 people per system.
After patch:
So the systems are upgraded to some extent, and can support 10 people in each system, You wont suddenly need 89 systems, you could reduce it to 9!!!. And suddenly there would be no need for jumpbridge networks in the scale that you have now.

With the first prices CCP came with it would cost 20 mil per day per system, so you are looking at 20*9=180 mil per day. 30 days= 5,4 Bil

Divide that on 92 people= 58,6 Mil per person. Then divide it with number of days, 30= 1,96 mil per day per person. In average thats the taxes from 1 hour of ratting. If you have 10% taxes.

Then start adding income you get from refining, eventual docking fee if you have people in your space, rental agreements, POS mining. And I think most of thoose 58 mil should be covered by a large margin.

Ofcourse if you want to start adding cynojammers and jumpdriges in every system out of thoose 9 systems it`s gonna get expensive. But thats also the point.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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0.0 is an open PVP zone and this is a huge draw. Quite a lot of content (bombs, bubbles, advanced building etc) is only usuable in 0.0. Additionally it is the part of the game where those seeking fame and glory can write their name onto the map and gain whatever boasting rights come from that deed.

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Quote:

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This stuff has little to do with isk and you are wrong to look at a tight level4/0.0 income comparison here.

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0.0 is where you go as an territorial leader when you want to leave an imperialist legacy in the legend of eve really.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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I read 67 pages of this, and the first thing I have to post when I get to the bottom of it is...a post making fun of Jade Constantine. FML.

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0.0 becomes more interesting when the existing power-blocs need to struggle for their existence and make significant strategic choices on spending their income.

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Originally by: Xeronn

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imho eve cant work without resource scarcity . If everyone can get it "free" (as in not killing other people for it) , people WILL get it free

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Originally by: Tesal

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Originally by: Itzena

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To what purpose? If there's nothing worth fighting over any more, and Alliance income is nerfed...why risk capfleets to seize more worthless space that will only cost money?

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Nothing worth fighting for?

I don't like you. I want to see you die and your empire burn.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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And you know why it doesnt work? Because due to all r64 **** people got lazy. I dont need to do anything, the afk-ISK-from-thin-air will fund me everything: from SOV, to POS to stations to ships. Atm all 0.0 alliances get reality check: suddenly they HAVE to participate in making isk. You know what would be perfect? Moon mining being changed to manual mode.

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Originally by: Cailais

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Dominion means you have to choose: settled farming life, ploughing those belts and reaping those npc rats or you're ghengis khan style nomadic warriors.

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Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab

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Originally by: Shawna Gray

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Lol. Pretty much everyone who can't cut it in 0.0 has a empire alt to make isk, or at the very least rats/mines etc.

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Fixed that typo for you.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: Pointfive

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: gambrinous

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Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm in one of those alliances, my ships aren't reimbursed

Ships are only reimbursed on approved ops (generally just an official FC) but even then, not all ships. Caps? NO, HACS? NO Recons? NO

So best case scenario is full reimbursement if I only ever PVP when there's an official fleet formed, and only if I fly a sub cap that is on a list. Yay.

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You know whats the funniest part about this thread? People contradict themselves all the time. But when they contradict themselves in one post - this is just comedy gold.

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Are you daft? Some ships are reimbursed most are not. Maybe he was flying one that isnt. You decide to go do some pvp on your own? No reimbursement. You decide to form a big gang? No reimbursement. Get ganked doing any form of pve? No reimbursement. If you fly a specific ship for a very specific flight. You get some of your loss reduced. You still lose isk. Woah man these freakin moons make 0.0 and isk fountain for the average man.

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Are you stupid? If SOME ships are reimbursed then he IS reimbursed. So his first line is a blatant lie. I wrote about reimbursement at all not full or whatever. Which he confirmed - in some cases he gets ship back = reimbursement program exists.

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Originally by: Verlisia

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people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.

Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.

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Originally by: Graysteel

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Being a carebear, I welcome the idea of my industrial corp being needed for the survival of an alliance. And in turn I enjoy the idea of having (needing) a pvp backbone to protect (and attack enemy space )not just the sov of a system but the people in it. Now the pvpers have more meaning then just being called up for some blob battle or some pos bashing. I doubt that those pvpers will have much time to farm isk via mining or ratting and will need to rely on the indutrial corps to generate the isk for the alliance. Perhaps the alliance should hire their pvpers to do what they enjoy. (Hey now you dont have to farm isk at all you get paid to do what you like to do, shoot things, probably as soon as you log on to when you log off.)

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Originally by: Shawna Gray

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Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab

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Originally by: Shawna Gray

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Lol. Pretty much everyone who can't cut it in 0.0 has a empire alt to make isk, or at the very least rats/mines etc.

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Fixed that typo for you.

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Lol you are not "special" if you can make some isk in 0.0. But if you are smart you put your monemaking char where he can do an optimal job, and thats in empire.

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No, if you are "smart" you make better than level 4's do by actually leveraging what 0.0 has to offer that empire does not. It is'nt that hard to make better money in 0.0 but you have to apply yourself to it, which most people are unwilling to do. Level 4's are just easier to do without really paying attention.

This is irrelevant though, as personal income levels will be vastly improved in Dominion. So much so that any knuckle head that can hit F1-F10 will be able to make level 4 income (and feel like he has finally become smart).

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Originally by: Honest Smedley

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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And in reality thats the mining issue in 0.0. Its easier to NPC/plex and buy needed trit from empire afk-miners/macros instead of mining it yourself.

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Unless, of course, you limit NPC/plexing resources such that not everyone can be doing it at any given time. By doing so, even though the amount earned mining will still be less per hour than when ratting, 0.0 will then require a more diverse skill set among your alliance members to fully exploit the space you live in.

People are basically arguing that there isn't enough strawberry (ratting) in the neopolitan ice cream that is 0.0 space.

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Originally by: Honest Smedley

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Originally by: Shawna Gray

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Originally by: Honest Smedley

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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And in reality thats the mining issue in 0.0. Its easier to NPC/plex and buy needed trit from empire afk-miners/macros instead of mining it yourself.

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Unless, of course, you limit NPC/plexing resources such that not everyone can be doing it at any given time. By doing so, even though the amount earned mining will still be less per hour than when ratting, 0.0 will then require a more diverse skill set among your alliance members to fully exploit the space you live in.

People are basically arguing that there isn't enough strawberry (ratting) in the neopolitan ice cream that is 0.0 space.

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Not when you have an unlimited strawberry called empire.

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...and that is where people are wrong.
Empire missioning is vanilla; safe, predictable, always available and boring.
Some people do prefer vanilla, however.

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Originally by: Kepakh

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Risk vs Reward is just nonsense. According to this logic you should be paid more for as you expose yourself to higher risk. If that is the case, you are just stupid and deserve to get podded.

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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Originally by: Super Whopper

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Who cares that the alliance is rich, the individual member will never see any of the benefits because they're expected to rat and mine. It's the leadership that fly Titans, motherships and have dozens of personal carriers and dreads. While this is corrupt it's the way it is and to force the individual member earn less is stupid beyond belief.

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Nerf greedy leadership- and by all accounts the changes will raise the individuals income in null.

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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Originally by: Lolion Reglo

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numbers and a variety of people over timezones is practically a requirement for operating out here.... so restart those recruitment drives, you'll need the numbers.

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This tbh..
Though so far the major null sec corps have shown zero interest in doing it.
So when they disband, broken and broke- the mechanics cant be blamed. Blame instead their inability to adapt.

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Originally by: Magnum III

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like making sure gorilla warfare is useful like in RL.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Doesn't really matter what you think though, my final point stands. If current 0.0 entities can't figure out how to manage their space and make it profitable there are a very, very large number of people who can (and will) be quite happy to take their place.

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Originally by: Cearain

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Well if level 4 missions are so great, then go run them. Get a jump clone and go to it. Nothing says that just because you are in big alliance you can not run level 4 missions. This crying about level 4 missions is ridiculous.

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Originally by: Cearain

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But in game the leadership of the different alliances should be lead by different people if they want the lower costs. If it’s the same people then the costs of each system should go up.

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Originally by: Cearain

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No they can’t now because of the vast resources the null sec alliances have. If the disparity between their resources and those in high and low sec diminishes in dominion, then we will have that.

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Well if that is the goal that’s fine, but a better goal would be to have more characters venture into null sec – not just the isk grinding ones. If you just want isk grinders in null sec then by all means make it more profitable than high and low sec. But if you want allot more pvpers and wars don’t make null sec so crazy profitable in comparison to high and low sec.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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I'm just going to put out some very simple numbers, you can make of it what you will.
bla bla bla

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